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May 16, 2012 10:50 EDT
I-PRESERVE trial: I-PROTEST!! DOE and large ankles : A "normal EF" in wolves' clothing?
Ibersartan didn't work in patients with normal EF with "symptoms" of "CHF". REALLY?
I can't help it that I found the design of this trial slightly annoying. All that was required was that the patient had "heart failure symptoms", and LVEF of at least 45% and "COULD" include an abnormal CXR, LVH or LAE on echo OR LVH OR LBBB on ECG. If my residents gave a permanent diagnosis of "CHF" to a patient based only on the above criteria of shortness of breathe and LVH by ECG , I would NOT give them a very good review at the end of their rotation. The design of this trial took me back to one of the most rudimentary pieces of advice that I ever give to any medical student: "Just because someone tells you it's CHF, don't ever EVER believe it until you have proof ", or at least until you have exluded ALL OTHER possiblities."
The reason? Simple. It's because we already know in clinical practice that nothing much works for these patients. You know them because you see them every week: They have hypertension, an EF of 50%, large ankles, fatigue and they keep coming into the ER for more and more doses of diuretic that works for about 3 days, then they are back with the same symptoms. I feel very badly for these patients because they are patients who are desparately seeking a diagnosis. I feel even worse when we give them one just to try and make them feel better.
Basically, I teach my students that in the patient with normal EF and dyspnea we start with assessing valvular regurgitation, then if that's not the issue, we look first and foremost at their (a) medication regimen, assessing for those that make them take on fluid like the great Titanic: ACTOS, NIFEDIPINE, STEROIDS. 40% of these study patients were on calcium channel blockers, and the removal of such should be the first order of business whenever possible in someone with fluid management issues. I tell them about my patient who once had a 40 pound weight gain with nifedipine. Removing that along with a gastric lap band procedure "CURED" her "normal EF heart failure". Perhaps just being on a calcium channel blocker should be in the exlucsion criteria for entry into one of these normal EF studies.
(B) we look at the U/A: ?proteinuric? and if yes, we do a 24 hour urine both for Cr.clearance and protein. Occasionally we are suprised to find nephrotic syndrome, BUT OFTEN we find the GFr is lower than we estimated which spells trouble with salt eaters who are drinking a lot of water because they are desperate to replace what we're stealing with our diuretics.
(c) we look for sleep apnea which can turn the delicate small ankles of any school girl into large uncomfortable pitting tree trunks in a 70 something year old. It might be worth it just to asked if anyone ever complained that she snores.
(d) we look at albumin, assess for issues with cirrhosis (something I spent years trying to figure out in a patient who actually responded beautifully to natrecor....yes natrecor worked for a normal EF patient who was drowning in fluid , and we asess for hypoxemia from pulmonary fibrosis/COPD, even adult onset asthma can have strange presentations. Perhaps consider doing a six minute walk and a PFT and see where you land.
(e) on the first minute of our evaluation, we must always keep in mind the chronic thromboembolic patient with near normal PA pressures, a hint of resting tachycardia, but subtle RV dysfunction that might not have been immediately obvious. This patient gets a CTA and sometimes a diagnosis of chronic recurrent PE.
(F) finally, we address the weight issue. In this study the average BMI was 30 +/- 5, so I'm not certain what percentage were actually overweight, but if they are overweight, they have a substantial reason to retain fluid from that issue alone, not to mention lack of conditioning as an etiology of shortness of breath.
But the BNP was a median of 320 -360 you say? It's not like the BNP was a 1000 in all of these patients as if it's often not, because guess what, that is BECAUSE it's NOT always congestive HEART failure when the BNP is midly elevated. Some Humans make BNP for unexplained reasons, but a fairly common reason for elevated BNP and big ankles is renal insufficiency inherent to being 75.
So, after it 's all said and done, if my patient just keeps coming in for "CHF" with very little to make their case, it's worth it just to do a "left heart cath" to check for recurrent ischemia, measure their LVEDP and get another look at their MR jet. So many of my "heart failure" patients just get better with addressing at least one or more of the above issues. I get more information there than from just slipping in a swan. At least I come out with an EDP and their coronary anatomy.
Which brings me to why I made the annoying point today that perhaps before we continue to be "bewildered" by the normal EF patient with "CHF" and their lack of response to a heart failure treatment, we should perhaps establish the diagnosis FIRST, and as definitively as possible, THEN study entities like Irbesartan to see how they will respond. Blaming a normal EF heart whose being taxed by fluid overload combined with renal insufficiency in someone eating salt and drinking 2 liters per day with severe sleep apnea on nifedipine seems hardly fair. I'd like to declare the diagnosis of CHF as both prejudicial and unjust in many cases.
If every single one of these patients had undergone a quick LVEDP measurement (we certainly do more horrific things than that to study cohorts in clincal trials so it wasn't that far -fetched) we may have found the magic subset that actually would respond to therapy. For the rest of those patients, it's a matter of a great amount of detective work, weight loss, fluid restriction and removing any offending agent from their regimen.
As Dr. Milton Packer put it "We don't really know what we are studying here. In many instances the heart is an innocent by-stander and the problem is in the periphery".
Yeah,............what he said.
Melissa
"Consent the stent" campaign--long overdue!
at 10:05 PM, EDT by Melissa
Hospital interest rates: Taking the family farm
at 08:22 PM, EDT by Melissa
Dr Dean Ornish with manna for the masses
at 10:05 AM, EDT by Melissa
Physicians remember: Mainstream-medicine haters are people too
at 12:37 PM, EDT by Melissa
All natural? $15 billion worth sold annually
at 12:36 AM, EDT by Melissa














Comments
Bravo, Melissa!
It is delightful to see that you are using pathophysiology and common sense in order to help patients who are basically "hopeless" from point of view of evidence based medicine. And I am sure many of them get better under your care. Are we talking about resurrecting Sir Wiliam Osler and starting to treat patients individually? Learning from unsuccessful trials of interventions to design new ones? Are we going to resurrect "diagnosis exjuvantibus"? I hope so. Because these were the times of glory for medical profession...
Diagnosis of CHF in this trial was suboptimal, sure, but far better than in ALLHAT trial which required exactly...nothing. Just a checkmark on a form. So this is by far not the worst.
ARB had very bad run of trials lately: from ONTARGET to TRANSCEND, from PROFESS to I-PRESERVE. Despite lowering BP they show no outcome reduction either at all (PROFESS, I-PRESERVE), less than expected (TRANSCEND) or even worse with ARB (ONTARGET renal)... what do we, practicing clinicians should do? Disregard previous outcome studies (CHARM-PRESERVED), start doubting what HOPE showed? Put in doubt "class effect" paradigm?
I am really confused at this point. Does anybody have visionary solution that will put everything (or at least most) in rational order?
Great point Melissa. BNP in the 300's not very exciting for high risk SCHF.
HOPE set the standard for a high risk non CHF group with ACEI. CHARM and VALHEFT added to that especially the charm added and charm alternative group. charm preserved would have needed more people but the trends were great.
Ontarget and transcend added to our info, not better than ram but not worse.
My pulmonary attending would 'freak out' of the admission dx was CHF - "that's a sx of something else, what are we treating?"
drug causes, pulmo causes, cardiac causes (ischemic and nonischemic), renal causes, etc. etc..
Hope you are having fun. mc
Guys,
I think mislabling patients as heart failure is just a pet peeve of mine that ranks right up there with giving lasix to someone with low urine out put when they were just bone dry, It always strikes a nerve with me because it's so counterproductive for the poor patients.
Dmitri, don't be discouraged. We are still helping patients dramatically with ace/arb. We can make some MR jets virtually disappear with good ace/arb therapy. We are helping patients with low EF's post MI and with low EF's period. Think back to the old old days when those drugs were not even an option and all we had to deal with was nitro and hydralazine. We've come a long way so, chin up!!
Mike, yes I'm having fun here as always with theheart.org gang. But it's an exhausting pace for all of us. I posted until 1 am last night thanks to the stupid sudden internet outages.The groans were audible through out the press room yesterday as all of the news outlets were affected in one way or another. Perhaps it was Madame what's - her- name, the 150 year old Vodoo queen who still haunts New Orleans they say. (I would have gladly taken the ghost tour with her instead of the drunken smoking folks we walked with Friday evening before the meeting started. I'll take a vodoo queen's antics before cigarette smoke exposure any day!)
P jourdain, sorry about the pro-BNP/BNP issue. I think it further emphasizes my point however. Appreciate your conversation on the topic.
You guys are why we love what we do. Thanks So much for your thoughts on our topics!
Melissa,
Very entertaining and educational comments.
Best,
AA
Excellent reminder,Melissa ,for those who forgot the rule number one:clinical curiosity and common sense....those were the days....where we use to learn and teach the good clinical skills.it's surprising that the sudy design has been accepted with this profile and conditions.any hidden reason behind it?therefore,we must not jump on conclusions,and we must practice our common sense , use our skills FIRST in properly diagnosing than treat accordingly.Certainly this type of patients is always challenging and needs more attention and research.
Dr. G:
I agree with you and while you hint that these patients need more research, if I could have the time and resources, I'd do this exact same trial with the following changes:
Same patient cohorts with same enrollment criteria.
Each patient gets an LVEDP measurement and a 24 hour cr clearance and protein study and a resting room air ABG/02 sat.
We first determine how often we were correct in our assumption that we were just about to treat these patients for what really is "heart failure".
Patients with high LVEDP are are divided into two groups and randomized to get Irbesartan vs. placebo. ( Subset analysis looks at responses of patients on TZD's, calcium channel blockers vs. neither of these two meds.)
Patients with normal LVEDP are then randomized to either be taken off calcium channel blockers and TZD's only, OR taken off these drugs and substituted with Irbesartan OR just have Irbesartan added to their regimens.
I think this trial design would get at the problem once and for all.
Welcome to criticize or add to , agree , or bash altogether!!!!
Melissa
Dear Melissa
I fully agree and hope that in the near future , the situation will be corrected and your suggestions will be taken into consideration to help sorting out the best approach for these patients.
Ghassan s Kiwan,MD
Thanks Ghassan. Appreciate your posts and thoughtful commentary.
Melissa